lady_windermere | Willow's reaction to Tara's death Vs Jack's raction to Ianto's death

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Willow's reaction to Tara's death Vs Jack's raction to Ianto's death

Ok, so RTD keeps saying how much he admires Joss Whedon. Has he learned anything from him at all? Let us look at one scernio "Willow's reaction to Tara's death Vs Jack's reaction to Ianto's death", and I think we will see that RTD is a big FAIL!

When Tara died in Willow's arms we had a loving relationship that lasted 3 seasons, with 22 episodes, we knew so much about what they had been through together. We knew they loved each other, we felt Willow's pain as she decended into darkness, we understood the need for revenge, and the total emptiness of her situation that she would take the actions she did. We might not agree with them, but we felt for Willow in her pain at losing a loved one who meant so much to her, her soulmate.

With Jack and Ianto, when Ianto dies in Jack's arms, we do not have this rich background. We did have three seasons, but only two of 13 episodes and one of 5. There was not the time to cover the ground of the relationship. In Season one, they basically fucked each other, maybe they had fun doing it, but their hearts belonged eleswhere. In Season Two, mainly in KKBB, Jack looks like he is saying he came back for Ianto, and asks him for a date, but there is no indication of love, it is almost as if they are convenient for each other, they know each others past, and understand it and Torchwood. There was no real development in Season Three either, just a discussion that people see them as a couple, which Jack is light hearted about, then a BIG DEATH SCENE.....There is no way I saw this as an expliantion as to why Jack choose to kill his Grandson because of what happened to Ianto, in my mind it was not Ianto that was the driving force behind Jack's decision, but that he does make the tough desisions when the chips are down, not matter the cost to himself or those around him. RTD saying that Ianto had to die to lead to Jack's decision just that RTD is using it as an excuse, and really he just wanted to kill of Ianto.

Ok those are my thoughts. What do you think? Agree, disagree, on the fence? Let me know.

I promise this is the last you will hear from me on the subject, I'm in morning for Ianto, and less involved in the Torchwood fandom now because of it. I think the only thing that will bring be back for Season Four is James Marsters coming back.

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I'm going to disagree with this a bit.

With Willow and Tara, this was only Willow's second relationship ever and Willow had never experienced the death of someone extremely close to her. She was in her early 20's and

Jack, is several thousand years old now. He's loved and lost and watched tons of people that he loves die. Jack may have loved Ianto, may not have. The fact is, Jack may no longer be entirely capable of love, he's lost too many people for him to give his heart away easily. The ambiguousness of the feelings is part of the character. Ianto obviously loved Jack, however, he was never entirely sure of Jack's true feelings. Not to mention, Ianto died in the middle of the crisis, Jack didn't have the luxury of falling apart. Plus, Jack has already seen the reprucussions of trying to bring back a person he cares about.

As for the 22 episodes vs. 13 or 5, that's more about the fact we're talking USA vs. UK.

I don't really think we are disagreeing to be honest. Ianto's death doesn't explain Jack's decision to kill his grandson, and isn't an excuse for it.

I think the big issue here is that I don't think Willow/Tara and Jack/Ianto are even remotely comparible at any point through out either show. I think all four people in both relationships are far too different. The only parallel things are the gay thing and the death thing.

It is in interviews post CoE that RTD is saying that Ianto had to die to explain why Jack did what he did, not me saying that. I just dont' buy it.

p.s. I agree that Ianto's death wasn't a motivator for Jack's decisions. I think Jack's decision to kill his grandson was exactly the reason you said.

However, I don't think RTD wanted to kill Ianto. I think Ianto's death was to demonstrate the sadness and the pointlessness of death. I truly believe that the show wouldn't have had half the emotional impact if all three team members had come out alive.

Ummmm! Not sure about that, I think the empisis of the programme was on the danger to the children, I think it would've had the same emotional impact from Jack's Grandson having to die.

Man, I responded to this and when I hit post my internet hiccupped and I lost it. I will now try to recreate my wording, hopefully I'll be equally as eloquent. BTW, Debating stuff like this is one of my favorite past times, tell me to shut up if you're done hearing my opinions.

Allright, here we go.

Yes, I think the children thing was shocking, but we hadn't known Jack's grandson for very long. We, as an audience, weren't highly attached to him. For instance, I went out and made a teddy bear because Ianto died. I wouldn't have done that even if 10% of the earth's children had died, one kid wouldn't have done it at all. I would have blinked said "wow, shocking," and moved on. I know I'm not a kid person so it would have had a higher impact on other people, however, I didn't see thousands or posts and comments about the death of Jack's Grandson.

No there wouldn't be the massive media (or fan), reaction to the Grandson's death, but I don't think the reaction has been handled very well. It did make an impact, but a negitive one.

But the negative impact is the point. We weren't supposed to walk away from this happy. We were supposed to be gutted and heart broken and I don't think that the fans would have been gutted by the death of one kid. We'd all have probably been shocked and it probably would have been the big thing everyone talked about, but in the long interesting meta's and not the heartbroken exclamations that Ianto's death caused.

I agree that it might not have made the same negitive impact if only the grandson had died, but I do think it could've led to a lot of interesting discussion as to why Jack did it. His decision making process, and what and who he is willing to sacrifice to save the majority.

I just don't agree that Ianto had to die for Jack to make that decision, I think he would've made it anyway.

I think Jack would have made the decision and then Ianto and Gwen wouldn't have allowed him to do it! I think that's how Ianto's death caused the outcome.

Ummm, not sure. I think Jack could've sent Ianto to save his niece and nephew, while Gwen and Rhy's would've gone to make sure their unborn baby was a safe as possible.

I tend to agree with you. Joss Whedon has these emotion-packed death scenes. Even in the middle of the crisis he gives the characters time to mourn for the loss of a character (even minor such as Xander with Anya at the end of CHOSEN or Buffy/Dawn over the loss of the girl in HELP)

RTD is a different creator. His views for his series are more skewed in what he needs to accomplish vs. what Joss wants the audience to feel with a character (that's probably how he screwed up with Spike's character being so likeable, Spike was a sympathetic character even when he was evil... not that I'm knocking Spike, 'cause hey I'm an Angel(us)/Spike girl)... but back to my point...

RTD has a different vision with his series, Jack was in the middle of a crisis, it wasn't like he could take time out to brood and angst over his lover's death. Whether Jack felt anything for Ianto deeply or not ... I think RTD left that up for debate really. He didn't spend a lot of time on the topic of Jack's love life. I'm sure Jack felt more for Ianto than the initial sexual attraction. But in the circumstances he was in at the time of Ianto's death he couldn't stop and mourn the loss or that of his grandson.

He has to live forever with the knowledge that not only did he lose Ianto, but he sacrificed his grandson for the greater good and gained his daughter's animosity. He knows she won't forgive him if ever. The only ones that came out of CoE with any semblance of a happy ending is Rhys and Gwen.

I'm not a major fan of Joss as a writer/creator to be honest. It's only Spike who's ever really captured my long term interest. RTD has at least given me several characters I am still interested in even if they are dead.
From the moment they killed Suzie it was evident that RTD was going to kill characters without remorse.
To be honest I wouldn't have believed it if we had seen a similar relationship for Jack and Ianto that Willow and Tara had. They were very different people. What I saw in CoE was Ianto coming to terms with his own feelings for Jack and Jack becoming a bit frustrated by Ianto's confusion.
I do believe Jack cared for Ianto but as their conversation in episode 3 showed, he was very much aware that he would continue on forever losing people he cared for.
I know RTD and the others have said that Ianto needed to die to tip Jack over the edge, but it wasn't just that, otherwise that is all they would have done, like they did to Willow by killing Tara. Instead they systematically stripped Jack of everything to reach the moment he had to choose to sacrifice Steven. He'd previously lost three of his team, then the trappings of Torchwood and the accompanying power that gave him (the SUV, the Hub, and his connections to government). Then, when he tried to act like the Doctor and confront the aliens, he lost Ianto someone he was beginning to care for and who had given him complete loyalty.
Put Willow in that situation and I believe she would have let the world burn. The relationship background may not have been shown on screen but there was a relationship, I think as much for Ianto's loyalty as for love.

RTD has contradicted himself several times in interviews and I think he got lost in the story as a writer and didn't step back as the show runner. They had a story concept and that concept set in place events. Someone was going to die and it wasn't going to be the leads Jack or Gwen. The only other characters the viewers had an emotional connection to were Rhys and Ianto and Rhys' death would not have driven Jack to the choices he made so it had to be Ianto.

Also RTD's a political beast where Joss is a personal/social beast and that alters the direction of a story.

I didn't have the emotional connection to Ianto that I had to Owen so I know it didn't hit me as hard as it did others, but as a viewer it did have more emotional impact than Steven's death to be honest. Jack was pretty numb by then and I think I was too.

I know RTD and the others have said that Ianto needed to die to tip Jack over the edge, but it wasn't just that, otherwise that is all they would have done, like they did to Willow by killing Tara. Instead they systematically stripped Jack of everything to reach the moment he had to choose to sacrifice Steven. He'd previously lost three of his team, then the trappings of Torchwood and the accompanying power that gave him (the SUV, the Hub, and his connections to government). Then, when he tried to act like the Doctor and confront the aliens, he lost Ianto someone he was beginning to care for and who had given him complete loyalty.

Yes, all these aspects of Jack's life where ripped from him, and of course the losing of Tosh and Owen as well. I can see that leading to Jack's decision to leave, but still think he would've killed his grandson in the end. That is Jack's nature, to make the tough decisions, I just don't think Ianto had to die lead to that decision, Jack would've made it anyway, and I think we could have many discussions on that decision, which has been overshadowed by Ianto's death.

RTD has contradicted himself several times in interviews and I think he got lost in the story as a writer and didn't step back as the show runner. They had a story concept and that concept set in place events. Someone was going to die and it wasn't going to be the leads Jack or Gwen. The only other characters the viewers had an emotional connection to were Rhys and Ianto and Rhys' death would not have driven Jack to the choices he made so it had to be Ianto.

I think this is what is getting to me more, how RTD is reacting to the people who are discussing it, or Ianto's death taking away all the other aspects of the episodes. I really do think he underestimated Ianto's popularity. I'm not really a great fan of Ianto, as was far more effected by Tosh and Owen's deaths, as Tosh was my favourite. RTD lost his message in the mist of all the reaction to Ianto's death, and not handling it very well

RTD is definitely a twit,
luckily I don't need him to enjoy Torchwood. I've gotten used to writing/living in an AU world.

He is! I think that is what has caused me to lose faith more than anything else. Is it worth getting invested in any character (except Jack and Gwen) at all.

Hm, I saw Jack/Ianto as very different from Willow/Tara so I'm ok with the different ways it played out, but to say Jack would have to see Ianto killed, to sacrifice his grandson. I don't know.

He knows that among the endangered families on earth are Ianto's realives and their kids and that Ianto counted on him to protect them. Also he has (arguably) lost the person he kept a human appearence for.

But I can't really say that Jack would have made a different decission with Ianto alive or if the child in question was one of Ianto's sisters. So was it necessary...no I don't think so, but it added to the horror and wasn't bad either.

Maybe it didn't add to the horror for me, so I still didn't see the point of it. Ianto's death felt like a waste to me, and a character and relationship that could still have been explored a lot more.

I just didn't see the connection between them was enough to explain any of Jack's later actions at all.

I'm not sure those two events are really comparable. Apart from both couples being gay, story-wise there's not much in common as such.

Willow is not the hero of BtVS, and in S6 she becomes the main Big Bad. Tara's death (a total fluke) turns her into an avenging angel, and then someone trying to destroy the world.

Ianto dies partly because of Jack's actions in 1965, partly because he chooses to stand by Jack's side when confronting the 456. His death makes Jack give up. (I have an essay on Jack and heroism knocking around in my head, but I've not got the time for writing it down just yet.) Ianto's death is about taking everything away from Jack, until there's nothing left, not about grief-fulled revenge.

Um... it's a little early, so I think I'll just point you towards this essay, which says everything I think.

(Janto was always like Spuffy to me. Willow/Tara is... in another country, relationship wise. I would have HATED Jack/Ianto turning into them.)

I felt it was a missed opportunity to explore more of Jack's character, and that the fleshing out of Ianto's was skipped totally. There was no conection between them to explain why it would effect Jack's later actions at all, which RTD seems to think it does.

I felt all of the emotions when Tara died. You had gotten to know the characters and their connection together. With TW, everything seemed so rushed. Ianto's death was sad and emotional but not in the same way. I don't feel like Jack connected with him because he wanted him. I feel like he was convenient to him

Yes, totally agree. There needed to be more character development for Ianto, and deeper exporation of the relationship between Jack and Ianto to show why it would effect Jack's actions.

Hmmm, I wouldn't compare willow/Tara and Ianto/Jack at all, they are completely incomparable. All they have in common is being a same sex couple. I think if RTD took anything from Joss in regards to the deaths it would be Wash's death.

Though the couples dynamics (Wash/Zoe, Jack/Ianto) are completely incomparable, Wash's death was sudden, unexpected and senseless. There was no reason at all, just shock value. Although in FF we saw Zoe's reaction, there was never time to see more then her immediate reaction and her calmer, emotion hidden one. It didn't add to the plot at all. Jack's was more emotional, but Ianto's death was the same-it didn't add to the plot anymore then Wash's did. It's just audience shock value, and character whumping.

there is no indication of love, it is almost as if they are convenient for each other,

I'd very much agree with this.

Yes, I can see that, but for Joss the series leading to the film had finished, and therefor the relationship wouldn't continue anyway, Jack is the main focus of TW, and significant relationships, which may effect his character, should be explored.

Thank you, yes, there was no depth to the relationship at all.

See, that's what I can't understand, COE rounded everything up and I thought that was it-TW was finished. I was very surprised to hear they planned to pull a Channel 5/Hart family thing. And everyone I've spoken to can't seem to understand it either, CoE seemed like the end game rather then a series to follow. I think if it had been endgame that would have been better.

Yes, as a series final, it would've worked better, and just another season, it doesn't.

Joss broke our hearts and made us cry over character deaths. RTD just pissed me off killing Ianto. It was a senseless death. It didn't have much effect at all in the grand flow of the series to me. That's what pissed me off. We cared about Ianto. His death was treated like it was nothing. Just a plot point. Nothing grand or heroic.

Jack got depressed a bit, but it didn't take much to bring him back. His daughter showed she had faith in him and he was back to himself. Then he allowed the death of his own grandson and we saw how it effected Jack's daughter. Jack showed little emotion over it really. The difference is that Jack is use to losing people. He is a bit hardened to it. Ianto's death didn't get the attention it should have.

So now Jack has run off to get past his heartbreak. Big deal. Jack has run off and left people before. If he comes back to find Gwen and is all cocky without saying much about losing Ianto, I will be even more pissed.

RTD is not the storyteller that Joss is. He never will be. The return of Capt John will be the only thing that brings me back to Torchwood.

Yes, for a leading character like Ianto, the impact wasn't enough from his death. I think RTD unterestimated him, and in doing so, the other events in CoE where overlooked. RTD seems out of touch with his own programme.

While I would like Captain John to come back, I don't trust RTD any to handle it well.

'While I would like Captain John to come back, I don't trust RTD any to handle it well.'
Me too.

I'm pretty positive he wouldn't.

'really he just wanted to kill of Ianto.'
Yeah, but than I think RTD has only ever seen Ianto as Jack's love interest; Ianto got very little backstory (and most of that turned out not to be true) and I heard RTD decided Ianto was going to die before the scripts were even written.

RTD makes no secret of the fact that Gwen is his favourite character and that she pretty much gets a death pass. Originally Torchwood was supposed to be Gwen-centric. Now that she's the last character standing (so to speak) it can be. I think Ianto died simply because he wasn't Gwen.

'There is no way I saw this as an expliantion as to why Jack choose to kill his Grandson because of what happened to Ianto, in my mind it was not Ianto that was the driving force behind Jack's decision, but that he does make the tough desisions when the chips are down, not matter the cost to himself or those around him.'
I know. Jack has always been the character that makes the hard choices (Small Worlds), Ianto didn't need to die to prove that. If anything I think it makes Jack a weaker character; instead of doing what has to be done, Jack has to be broken to make the tough choices. I guess I just don't believe that Ianto HAD to die so that Jack could kill his grandson because most of their relationship took place off screen (they had a date that we never saw and that 'not a blip in time' line was on a radio program that some people don't even consider canon) so we don't really know WHAT Jack felt for Ianto. We saw HOW MUCH of Rhys/Gwen's relationship?

Yes, I really don't think a Gwen-centric TW would work. She is not a character that inspires sympathy at all. She just seems charmed, and gets by on pure luck.

I really think that RTD has misjudged his programme to such an extent that he is not really in touch with how it is progressing in the minds of others. His main female characters he is so fond of just don't work!

'She is not a character that inspires sympathy at all. She just seems charmed, and gets by on pure luck.'
Yeah, pure luck indeed. I couldn't help but notice that after the Hub blew up there wasn't a scratch on her (Ianto at least had that cut on his cheek). I think I would be more sympathetic to her if she had faced consequences of any kind; her affair with Owen has been pretty much forgotten about, Rhys came back from the dead and was not a zombie, she has never lost a lover or family member, she didn't even lose her baby and/or her husband. At this point I find Gwen so boring; I know that no matter what happens Gwen will be fine and better off than before.

'I really think that RTD has misjudged his programme to such an extent that he is not really in touch with how it is progressing in the minds of others. His main female characters he is so fond of just don't work!'
Yeah, it seem like he just doesn't or can't look at his own work objectively. Which is sad, because if he could Torchwood might have been so much better.

Yes, she at no point suffered the consequence of her actions, or had any drama attached to her, which leaves he lacking depth, and unrealistic.

it seem like he just doesn't or can't look at his own work objectively.

He seems to be, my way, or the highway, and many fans are taking the highway, so his way isn't working.

'Yes, she at no point suffered the consequence of her actions, or had any drama attached to her, which leaves he lacking depth, and unrealistic.'
Yeah.

'He seems to be, my way, or the highway, and many fans are taking the highway, so his way isn't working. '
I might have given New!Torchwood a chance, but his if you don't like it you can go watch Supernatural because those boys are hot (because clearly the only reason people liked Ianto was because he was attractive) comment really killed what interest I had. At least Kripke is nice to his fans.

Really any lack of character development in Ianto is his fault.

RTD seems to want to take credit for EVERYTHING, (he said he knew CoE would be great because he wrote it) so yes it is his fault.

I think we do see that Jack does care deeply by this point.

As others have poiinted out, Jack is very, evry old by this point. I think he tries hard not to fall in love because he knows that eventually, he'll be alone again. That said, I think hr gives his heart away more easily than he likes to let on.

And of course Ianto had to die. What, next season we were going to have curtain fic? For me the secondary story was all about Jack waking up to the fact that he is not The Doctor. He walked in there with Inato with absolutely no plan, nothing but bluster - exactly like the Doctor on countless occasions.

Except The Doctor is always the smartes man in the room, woould have likely been very familiar with these aliens and would have figured something out. Jack, no so much. This is the moment when he is taught (brutally) that he's got nothing. And, in the end, he needs to sacrifice someone precious to him so that everyone else can live (And I'm sure, he's thinking at that point that even in that situation The Doctor would have figured out how to hook up that machine to himself and his grandson would have been spared.) Jack leaves at the end because he realizes he's been modeling himself on someone that he can't be. He leaves because he can't bear to b on earth and also he no longer has any idea who he actually is.

Also, as an aside, note that Buffy was willing to have to entire world destroyed rather than harm Dawn. Jack doesn't make the same choice.

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Willow's reaction to Tara's death Vs Jack's raction to Ianto's death

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