lady_windermere | Characterisation

My view with all fiction (fanfic, profic, movies and all) is that the plot should always be a slave to the characterization, not the other way around. Because the characters are no-longer the characters I'm interested seeing/reading about if the way they act is based on what the plot dictates, not on "what would Buffy do".

My biggest problem with OOC-characterization is then that it feels like cheating to me; rather than coming up with a way to make the plot work within the boundaries set by the characterization, the writer takes the short-cut and changes the character. I feel the same way about fanon.

As for AUs and ARs - different circumstances can change a character, but the change has to be justified (though I don't get the point of OOC all human AUs - isn't the whole idea of an all human AU to have the same characters in a different setting?). That's actually one of my complaints about the S8 comic - the characters feel OOC, but that could be explained by the fact that 1,5 years has passed from "Chosen", except hat we're not given any explanation why they have changed.

Kinkfic is a whole different matter, IMO, because the kink is the focus there, not the characters or the plot. I don't think a pure kink PWP needs to have strictly canon characterization because it's main function is to just titillate the reader. I do wish, though, that more kinkfic writers would mark the fics as such because a lot of bad feeling comes from people not interested in pure kinkfic reading it and expecting canon characterization, and then leaving bad feedback about the characters. Of course, the line between kink and non-kink isn't set in stone. Take the daddy-kink, for example: I can't see a scenario where Spike would call Angel 'daddy' in all seriousness (especially since he's pretty much the only character in Buffyverse who doesn't have daddy issues), but I can see Angel thinking of Spike as his son in a way (on the other hand, I can't really imagine Angel getting turned on by seeing Spike as his son, unless the story has Angel/Connor undertones...)

And I'm just gonna stop here, I think, before my comment reaches thesis-length - can you guess that I'm having a boring day at work? ;)

Yes, I know a lot of people really do get upset when they read something and consider it OOC. Then many have strong views about characterisation in their own heads, which are not felt by the writer. I do have strong views myself. I tend to keep those for writing Gen fic, as I feel to make shipper fic work, then certain aspects are not always kept true to character.

Yes with non-canon ships, you can keep the major characterisations, and explore how two people would have a relationship, within the boundaries. But the point is it is not canon.

I have been disappointed in the season 8 comic as well, especially as Joss is writing it. I know it takes place 1 1/2 years post "Chosen" (and am still trying to figure out how they got that operation together in that short space of time), so maybe everyone has changed slightly, but these seem major changes we have just had dumped on us.

I find my views of the characters are not ones everyone agrees with, so I am quite willing to allow some leaway for writers because of it. I thought the poll would be slightly better than a character study (I would love to do one of Darla for example, but I think my Angelus and William the Bloody would just show how much I don't stick true to even my own characters to write kink).

I fully admit to being a characterisation fundamentalist.

I read and write fic to get more stories about the characters I love and I find weak characterisation a big turn off. I personally don't see the point of writing characters OOC, otherwise you might as well be writing original fiction.

Of course, how canon characterisation is interpreted and implemented by different people (even within the show) will vary considerably!

True, everyone has views on characters, and their strengths and weaknesses with someone would disagree with. One reason I didn't want to do any character studies. I would rather explore that in Gen fic.

I find that with non-canon Shipper fic, then to get the two characters together, something has to give in the characterisation. Not to say that it should be totally OOC. To explore these characters having a relationship, then it means that you have to work around something. Which could be intertaining.

I try really hard to keep my characters down pat and I tend to steer clear of OOC fics when reading. That said, everyone sees different things so some degree of OOCness will probably occur naturally dependent on pairing and fic. I've read some of your stuff and i wouldn't class it as ooc.

Admitedly not read all, but to me OOC is when the character may as well be named anything, because he/she/they aren't the ones i've seen on tv or read.

Do have to admit i haven't read the daddy kink ones, since it's a squirk of mine >

Yes, have to admit to write Daddy!Kink, I have to move away from my ideas of Angelus and William character.

*shrugs* Sometimes you have to a little. When i did my btvs/firefly crossover i had to do the same a little for Jayne and Spike a bit. Hopefully they didn't read majorly ooc but there were aspects, I'm sure of it.

Yes, and I think that some of us have such different interpretations of the character. May think you are being true, but to someone else it is OOC. Then no-one (except Joss) rules the roost, to should give some leeway I suspect. I do have opionions of character, but, except in gen fic where I might be trying to explore an aspect of character, I do tend to keep it to myself.

I am finding that more and more people have moved away from my idea of characteristion for certain characters. But live and let live.

Oh certainly. I'm def not a canon-sticker in all aspects though i must admit if the character comes accross all gary-stu and strange with no explanations (ie Spike acting like a hyper 13 year old girl) I tend to click back. Think it depends on fandom too. There are some definetes that tend to stay true when people write the characters and a lot of fanon stuff tends to get kinda passed around especially Vampire lore and that.

I mainly think of writing them in character in non-kink areas. It for example really ticks me off when I happen on a fic where for no apparent reason everyone is nasty to a character. Everyone from friends to family treats them like dirt in favor of another character most usually the rivial of character A for the affecions of another.

I never wrote kink, but there are some things I try to steer clear of reading. And when I hint to sex scenes I try to leave it up to the reader or I say how I personally view the pairing in question. Depends on who it is.

Not noticed the everyone against A in favour of B, so will not comment on that.

When I first started out, I was sure I would never write sex scenes, was all prepared to leave them at the bedroom door. Then I thought I was letting down some readers, who like to read that type of detail. So I did it. But still feel I am too clinical in my discriptions, and not erotic enough.

It's happened in some of the fics I've come upon, lately it's been Buffy the moron that Angel/Spike and company treat like dirt. She hates Spike all of the sudden and whines about wanting Angel. I'm not even that fond of Buffy and it annoys me.

I don't feel comfortable writing sex scenes and when I tried they always sound so corny. Sort of like "they met and then hump humpa." I have my story listed as pg13 so I don't know if I'll change it. Some readers get mad when you do that too, I had one where I asked the readers what they thought of me changing it to R and they were against it. I might poll to see how some people feel about it now.

I love the characters as I first met them, in the TV shows, and tend to avoid reading anything that diverges too far from them. I can take a lot of non-canon pairings as long as I feel the canon characters might have reacted in something like teh ame way in the given circumstances. Otherwise, why bother. All-human AUs with OOC characters - what's teh point? Just giving the characters the same names and mentioning the odd forehead, bleached hair or eyes isn't the same thing, and I don't really see the point of it. I want to see the "real" characters cope with new situations, not strangers with familiar names.

I am a purest when it comes to gen fic, which I think should explore the character in a curcumstance new to them. With Ships I have a bit more leeway, especially when they are ships that bring in unusual pairings not touched on in canon.

Then when I do look for canon, I have very strong views, which, if I kept to for all fanfic, would end up with me reading nothing!

*grin*
I will read pretty much anything when I'm in the mood but over the top OOC tends to put me off cause I keep asking 'why didn't you just give them different names and call it original fic?' since I spend too much of my reading time getting grumpy because the characters named would not act that way in any circumstance...
except kink. For me kink is game playing as much as the physical enjoyment of the kink. So Spike can call Angel daddy during sex games but I'm not so keen on it in normal interactions (especially when it comes with him crawling into Angel's lap at meetings) unless of course it is an insult.
If Angel wants to wear woman's underwear (what? He might) that's fine but I couldn't imagine him wanting to go to a drag show in a dress and call himself Angela. Unless he was forced to for undercover purposes and maybe discovered he liked it but then I could only see him dressing up in the privacy of his own room and being mortified when Spike caught him. (Oooo plot bunny)
Anyway... what was I saying?
It's all about characterisation which I take the bulk from the show and when I deviate I like to try and make it believable. Spike isn't going to suddenly morph into William and write poems to Angel or anyone else and Angel isn't suddenly going to be caring of Spike and understanding. They grate on each other, the snark is what makes their relationship so much fun but that doesn't stop me making them fall in love *grin*

Gah! I'm babbling and now I have to go back to my WIP and check I haven't done any of what I have just railed against.

Yes, the kink rules mostly in that type of fic. What titulates seems to be what is wanted, not good characterisation.

With trying to get them into each others arms, then the fact that they have a strained relationship helps to make the story more interesting, and gives a lot a material to work with.

I read OOC, but still think that a lot of it is taking away from the characters as well. Still I will enjoy a good story.

that said, the kink is even better if it works within good characterisation and is believable in the character interaction.

When the characters are too OOC I stop seeing the originals and if it is good simply enjoy it for that and not for the characters I adore.

The interesting thing for me is when the writer has a different view of the characters from mine. So they are writing with what they perceive as canon characters but it makes me wonder if we were watching the same show. Everyone views the characters from their own cultural and personal backgrounds and can interpret things very differently from another.
At least it keeps the fandom alive and active!

Nods, yes. There are so many different views of characters that what seems OOC to me, maybe the other person writing in character as far as they are concerned. It is a wide and varied fandom!

Well, this is difficult to answer, as many of the official writers for the show saw the characters in different ways, and thus there were episodes in which Xander or Spike seemed to be OOC to me, so I imagine it's the same, if not worse, in fanfic. My feelings are that if you're writing about these specific BtVS/AtS characters you'd want them to be as recognizable as possible because isn't that why we read/write fanfic? Because we love the characters we saw on screen? It may be different if one is writing to a specific kink, but even when pairing characters for ficathons or whatever, I still like to come up with a believable reason that Y and Z are shagging like bunnies when apparently they had nothing in common/disliked each other in canon. That's probably why I don't write PWP - it usually takes me a lot of words and plot to get Y and Z together in a way that makes sense and feels like it could have happened, given these circmstances.

I don't think there's anything wrong with writing kink!fic, and a lot of people enjoy reading it, but to me it's better if the characters are recognizable. One of my personal turn-offs is the use of the word "childe" which seems to be frequently used in fanon but was never, ever, used in canon. That alone is enough to jar me right out of a fic. Also, renaming Buffy as "Elizabeth". Yes, sometimes "Buffy" is a nickname for "Elizabeth", but Joss made it perfectly clear that Buffy the Vampire Slayer's legal name is "Buffy". It's on her school transcripts and her tombstone and in Something Blue, she tells Spike "My mother gave me that name," so I really don't understand to urge to rename her "Elizabeth". I just don't get it. *sigh* But that's just my personal opinion.

Yes, I can see where people are coming from in wanting fic to stay true to character. These are the characters loved on the shows, and as such they are who we want to read about.

The trend to make Spike weak and a victim has been upsetting my just recently, hence the poll. I don't mind a little of it, but I just seem to be reading it constantly. Spike did have various times when he was disabled, such as the wheelchair, and the chip, but he always bouced back.

Yes, I agree. And even when Spike was disabled in the wheelchair, he wasn't weak - he didn't sit around crying and feeling sorry for himself all day. He continued to snark and call Angelus on his rudeness, and secretely praticed getting out of the chair to attempt to walk when the others weren't there. Yeah, Spike is no-one's victim. I'm totally sure (i. e. the mine vignette in FFL) that although Angelus may have tried to dominate him, he wasn't a victim.

And I did write one Human AU for a ficathon (Xander/Angel) because I'm too much of a canon whore to be able to comfortably hook-up those two due to Xander's feelings about vampires in general, and Angel in particular. So I had to give them a fresh start and make them both human, but I still tried to retain their characteristics and make them recognizably Xander and Angel.

Here by way of the

su_herald. I took the poll and wanted to add this:

I think fandom characterisation is vastly different from canon for several reasons. You have shippers who write their ships in spite of canon (I myself do this). You also get character-bashing fics where the author dislikes one or more characters or a pairing. Then you have authors who write a character in a wildy AU manner to the point where there's little resemblance to the actual character.

So I suppose you could say fandom characterisation depends on the author and is in the eye of the beholder.

I totally agree with everything you had to say. And my own personal characterisations are sometimes completely different to someone elses. Can on occasions make them difficult to read.

And my own personal characterisations are sometimes completely different to someone elses.

In my opinion, that's not a bad thing, it's a good thing. Sometimes you run across something that upsets you-but that's why there are warnings and such. But I love to come across a fic that make me stop and think about a character or his motivations, especially if it's something I would never have thought to write and it's even better if the characterisation is so dead-on that I ca hear the actor's voice in the written words. It makes my day to read stuff like that.

Can on occasions make them difficult to read.

I've run across those too but for the most part? I think that depends on the reader's personal thoughts on characters.

For example, rape fics. Not my favorite thing to read but I have no problem (in relation to characterisation) with someone writing Angelus or Spike committing rape because such a thing is within the characters. However, I have a huge thing about rape fics where the attackers are Xander, Riley, Lindsey, Gunn or Wesley.

I do judge vampires differently from humans. What I can tolerate a vampire doing, or happening to a vampire, I cannot with a human. This extends into AU human, when either one or both of them become human. I then cannot let them be mistreated, or mistreat in human form.

I expect vampires to have a demon, and therefore to behave differently from a human. If it is Angelus or William the Bloody, I expect them to feed and be evil.

I expect vampires to have a demon, and therefore to behave differently from a human. If it is Angelus or William the Bloody, I expect them to feed and be evil.

I agree with you on that, totally. And by extension of canon storylines, I'd have to include both Lindsey and Riley as behaving differently.

I do judge vampires differently from humans. What I can tolerate a vampire doing, or happening to a vampire, I cannot with a human.

While I fully believe Xander, Riley, Lindsey, Gunn and Wesley capable of many brutal things (as indeed, they all were within canon), there are some things they would not do...ever. But that's just my opinion.

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