Brian Lynch's Characterisation of Spike

[lady_windermere]

I have been lurking round the IDW Message board, and then saw this.


Brian Lynch, scripter of IDW Publishing's July-debuting Spike: After the Fall said character creator Joss Whedon provided a solid direction for the series.

"Joss laid the groundwork with me, a very specific outline, and now I'm carrying it out," Lynch said. "He did the heavy-lifting in the beginning, and now I'm the spokesman, I'm the mouthpiece."

Here's how IDW describes the four-part series:

"In IDW's Angel: After the Fall, all of the characters who survived the melee that concluded Joss Whedon's TV series have had to find their way in a Los Angeles cast into hell. As befit his character, the vampire Spike seemed to have it all at the start -- he was set up in a certain Beverly Hills mansion, surrounded by a cadre of female warriors and Illyria, too. But it wasn't always so easy for him.

"Spike: After the Fall tells the tale of what happened in the intervening months since that alleyway cataclsym. Along for the ride in this series are Illyria, who has a tendency to revert back to Fred at inopportune times, as well as Angel's Dragon, and a new cast of characters as well. Most importantly, the series introduces a character who will come to be see as Spike¹s arch-nemesis. Even more than Angel."

Series artist Franco Urru provides two issues in a 50/50 split for the first issue, and the Australian art team of The Sharp Brothers offer a grindhouse-inspired incentive cover.

"I cannot express how great this is coming out," Lynch said. "I didn't want to dilute Angel: After the Fall or the previous Urru/Lynch Spike tales, so we didn't plan this until we saw whether or not it would work. It worked. It works soooo well. This is gonna be goooood. All the hell! None of the Angels!"


I posted it at angel6_aft, but want to voice some concerns at my own journal, rather than there, as Brian sometimes visits.

Brian has done well in his Spike stories, but the more I hear him talk about Spike the more I feel his characteristion of Spike is not mine. I don't see Spike as an anti-hero, nor Angel as an arch-nemisis of Spike's and I really cannot see Spike as "having it all" in Hell.

Any thoughts?

Should say this is post NFA Angel Season 5!

Comments

[gillo]

Spike is about love, first, last and always. Lots of floozies might be fun for him - I don't think for a minute unsouled Spike was ever monogamous - but without a woman to adore he would never feel whole or happy.

He's an anti-hero at some points in his journey - rather a Jacobean one in many ways - but not by the end of AtS. And that should be where he's picked up from.

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

Brian is picking up the story during for the first two issues, and post Angel Season 5, so that is the characteristion he should use. Souled Spike. Ok the Anti-Hero might be chipped Spike, or even sometimes pre-chipped days, but not now!

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

A couple small quibbles: it didn't say that Spike had it all in hell. It said he *seemed* to with his whole living the life of Hefner appearance in the beginning of the parent series. Spike has always been a hedonist, after all, and it one had to imagine a heaven for Spike it probably *would* involve something Hefnerian (with added Buffy).

As for Spike's nemesis...if Angel isn't then who is? From day one of Spike's appearance in the BtVS series he and Angel have been at odds. I would characterize their current relationship as warring brothers but they are still almost always at odds. I don't think the word nemesis has to imply hatred, although both Spike and Angel have professed hatred for each other several times (I think they're both greatly exaggerating that feeling) but up to this point they haven't yet been able to make the jump through their baggage to outright affection (although, IMO, it is inevitable). Still they do kind of fit the definition of each other's nemesesises.

All that said, I didn't see any mention of Spike as an anti-hero until you brought it up.

Then again, I never get nervous before I see what's actually happening in the series because Joss, and now Brian, are excellent when it comes to appearances not being the true story. I *knew* Spike wasn't going to be a bad guy in the comic and I *knew* that he wasn't sitting on his tush not helping people when the series first started and I ignored the hullaballoo that happened during the first couple of issues...and it turns out I saved myself a lot of upset because I was right to trust in their vision.

I recommend the same until you actually see something absolutely confirming that they are moving away from your image of the character.

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

It is at the Message Board that he has said, repeatedly, that Spike is an anti-hero. I also didn't see the "harem" as a "harem" but as a fighting force that he had in training. Spike having groupies just isn't my Spike, who held a relationship for over 100 years with Dru, and then fell for Buffy. He may have one-night-stands, but wouldn't keep them round. For the long term, he looked for relationships. There may have been Harmony, I know, but he didn't go back to her for cheap sex in Angel Season 5 except for one instance. If he wanted long term cheap sex, she was there.

With Angel, both Spike and Angel had bigger fish to fry than each other for a long time. Then by the end of Angel Season 5 they were working together, fighting together. Yes they may share the same goals in some ways. Buffy, redemption, but they also shared the goals of protecting people and fighting the good fight....often together as a team.

I will be getting the comic, and yes Brian has made things work that I didn't like the sound of before I read the comic, but I just do not think that his vision of Spike is the same as mine.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Spike's a character that was constantly evolving during the series and he invented himself anew several times.

He's just had the soul for two years now and when the shows ended and he was pretty much still left to find his own way, so I think it's ok that Brian takes some new directions.

In Buffy S7 he already had a soul, but his motivations had not changed much. He still fought for Buffy.

During Angel S5, he was working out his own gig. It's where he actively wanted to be a hero for himself. But ultimately he still stood in Angel's shadow, following in his footsteps as a champion. I think that's what's meant by "Arch Nemesis", that Spike can't be constantly Angel's second in command. That he has to find a way of his own and for that he maybe has to face off with Angel. Not even in hate, more like it was in destiny.

Spike's not the same champion as Angel. Being constantly repressed and torturing himself. That just isn't his gig.

I think, Lynch wants to take Spike in the direction of a shady (Han Solo, Harry Dresden) type of hero. and while it's not exactly what I would do, I can see where it comes from.
The cool darkish type of hero, that's exactly what Spike would like. He recreated himself from the ashes of the bloody awful poet and now he's finding a new image to shape himself after.

It's still the same fool for love inside, but it would take the right person to bring that out.

So all in all, there is some stuff that I don't like much, like that Spike is suddenly so cautious, but in general I find Brian's characterization pretty spot on and without just copying the shows.

ahem, this got a bit long and I'm not even sure if I got across, what I mean. Hope you don't mind.

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

I'm not sure that making Spike a "dark" hero is getting him out of Angel's shadow. Angel always had the treat of Angelus returning, and has gone dark a few times in the show. Such as when Darla was tormenting him and after he lost Connor, so yet again it is something that Angel has done in the past already.

Oh yes, I'm all for Brian taking new directions, and breathing life into the character as well. I don't want him to get stale after all. I want him to grow, and become the champion that he could develop into. Brian has done that, if he relies too heavely on female influence sometimes, I can overlook that.

As for the "Harlem" for me, they are a fighting force that Spike is training. They are putting on a show at present to make it look like they are not a threat, and until totally proven otherwise that is what I shall continue to believe!

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Angel always had the treat of Angelus returning, and has gone dark a few times
But it's not the same way, is it?
I meant another kind of dark, a bit roguish. Good at heart but not working for society or something like that. He might even want to keep the appearance up that he himself matter s most to him.

With Angel there's mostly good, or really dark. Spike I could see walking the line. More like Faith, if I have to compare him to anyone from the Buffyverse.

if he relies too heavely on female influence sometimes, I can overlook that.
Oh, i think there are still some surprises coming concerning the harem. My impression is, that the girls are pretty powerful themselves and rather kept Spike than the other way round.
Why they are so attracted to him (besides the obvious) is going to be interesting.

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

Yes well I can see Spike doing a loveable rogue, but when it comes to dark, Angel would always be the darkest with the threat of Angelus. Saying that the Rogue would describe Liam therefore Angel has already done it a well!

I'm hoping they are attracted to him (aside from his looks) because of his fighting ablilties and the confidence he can install in them to fight for themselves.

I kind of don't want Spike to be a kept man. I would rather the whole thing was a smokescreen to disguse the treat that they might be and take the other Lords by surprise.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

But then Liam wasn't hero at all.

I just read, that you did not read issue 9 yet, so I'll keep my mouth shut about the girls, so I wont spoiler you.
I find his situation with them pretty interesting though, so maybe we can discuss it, when you read it?

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

No Liam was a drunken womaniser. Not the least bit of a hero, more just what Darla was looking for!

Nope not read the comic yet, in the post at present!

[shapinglight]

I have some of the same concerns as you do, but they only arose with Brian's portrayal of Spike in A:AtF. I loved his Spike in both Asylum and Shadow Puppets.

I think it's the harem that's getting me.

I agree that Spike would probably like that scenario for a little while, but I don't see it giving him any long-term satisfaction, so I very much hope the whole idea gets ditched at the end of A:AtF. To me, it just seems to smack too much of wish-fulfillment on Brian's part for Spike. He really likes him and wants him to have what lots of men (presumably) would like to have. However, of all the versions of Spike we've seen in the past, this is the one I like the least, and I just don't want to see his character veer ever further in that direction.

Oh well, Brian can't possibly please all of us, can he? He wants to contrast Spike with Angel and he's certainly doing that. I just wish it didn't have to be (IMO) to Spike's detriment.

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

The "Harlem". For me, they are a fighting force that Spike is training. They are putting on a show at present to make it look like they are not a threat, and until totally proven otherwise that is what I shall continue to believe! If proven otherwise, I will throw my hands up in horror!

Will females have been quite an influence in Spike (and William's) life, I think Brian is slightly overdoing it. Brian does like to give Spike his own team, mostly female. I can see him doing it again. I guess I just kind of wish the team was Beck and Tok again. That was a good relationship. I pray that Spider is not a love interest, and that there is no relationship between them. I would like her better if she was a fighting partner.

I guess I will just have to wait and see, like everyone else!

[shapinglight]

You haven't read the latest issue, I think, have you?

It's true that women have been, and continue to be, a big influence on Spike. Don't mind that at all. It's the way this is set up that bothers me. However, I can cope if it's just a temporary phase. If Spike is left at the end in sybaritic pseudo-bliss with Spider and co, I shan't be a happy camper - not unless Brian works miracles with Spider's character in Spike: After the Fall, which I suppose is possible.

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

No not got #9 yet, it is "in the post". Not reading reviews either. So very much in the dark! It is one of the reasons I am just lurking at IDW

Have an idea about the ending, where that really wouldn't happen, but I guess Brian hasn't written it yet, so it is up in the air still!

[jenshih-blue.livejournal.com]

Webster's on-line defines antihero as the following a protagonist or notable figure who is conspicuously lacking in heroic qualities

I would disagree with Mr. Lynch in this part of his description of Spike. Perhaps in the beginning he was, but then he was a vampire after all, a soulless creature. As the series continued I would describe Spike as being first a reluctant hero (chipped Spike) and then later as a dark hero. Spike always hated admitting that he was heroic in anyway because for him Angel was held up as the epitome of what a hero was and the last thing he wanted was to be compared to Angel whom he viewed as both a 'ponce' and a 'nancy-boy'.

As far as the arch-nemesis goes Webster's on-line defines nemisis as a: one that inflicts retribution or vengeance b: a formidable and usually victorious rival or opponent

I most definitely see Spike as the (b) definition when it comes to his relationship with Angel. Even when they were both soulless Spike and Angelus were rivals, often for Drusilla's affections, then later for Buffy's. After everything they had been through there was still that one-upmanship quality to their relationship. As if both of them had to prove who was the better man, vampire, hero, etc. It was in a way much like sibling rivalry.

I honestly believe that Spike has always had the mindset that just because you're a hero you didn't have to quit having fun. Thus my opinion that Spike was more a dark hero.

His life, pre-vampire, was in Victorian England and he was oppressed as a human by the belief system he was raised in. Being changed liberated him from societal rules and he took it to heart indulging himself in drink, women (even though he did care for Dru deeply), and basically became a hedonistic rogue. Rogues as we all know was quite popular in the romantic literature of the time and if nothing else William was book geek and a romantic at heart. That doesn't mean that he couldn't be faithful to one person. He just enjoyed his freedom and lived his life (or rather unlife) to it's full extent, unlike some of Joss' very human characters

Now I shall be getting off my soap-box and go back to my writing. ;-)

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

A very interesting reply, much to mull over. I really do not see Spike as an anti-hero, he has proven himself to be a hero and champion to me. And has heroic qualities.

I can see them as rivals in many ways, but when the chips where down, Spike was the first one to put his hand up to fight at Angel's side. I see their relationship as being more complicated than just arch-nemesis, right from the start, when Angelus first meets William, up till now with them both having souls. They depend on each other in a tight spot, and when there is a difficult situation, they turn to each other.

Love your soap box!

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

angelstart makes some very good points.

Personally, I think of both Spike and Angel as anti heros but for very different reasons. An anti hero is a central character in a story, novel, or play who lacks traditional heroic qualities, such as high purpose or moral strength. Both fit this description but from very different perspectives.

Angel lacks true moral strength. He often does things out of anger (such as not really helping Lindsey in "Blind Date", despite his big speach to Buffy about saving souls in "Sactuary" or locking all those people in the wine cellar in "Reunions") or high-handedly makes self-serving decisions on his own (such as choosing to return to a vampire in "IWRY", making the blanket decision to join Wolfram & Hart for all of the gang in "Home" or talking Lorne-Lorne-into killing Lindsey in "NFA").

Spike, on the other hand, lacks a high purpose. He very often does the right things for all the wrong reasons, even when he was evil (before the chip). We've seen him act out of love-for Drusilla, for Buffy, for Dawn, for Joyce and for Fred. We've seen him save the lives of the Scoobies, who he's always professed not to like at all. We've seen him take bullets for Lindsey, someone he had no reason to trust after the scam he pulled on Spike and we've watched as he developed a rapport with Illyria. We've seen that he believes in speaking the truth time and again.

And more importantly, IMO, is the fact that Spike sought out his soul of his own free will and has died saving the world. That's something that Angel has not done.

To me, that makes Spike more of a hero than Angel and I suppose that's the way I'll always see them.

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

Personally, I think of both Spike and Angel as anti heros but for very different reasons. An anti hero is a central character in a story, novel, or play who lacks traditional heroic qualities, such as high purpose or moral strength. Both fit this description but from very different perspectives.

They do have anit-hero qualities, that is very true. They have (or in Angel's case had) a demon as well as a soul, which could cloud even the most moral soul.

Angel lacks true moral strength. He often does things out of anger (such as not really helping Lindsey in "Blind Date", despite his big speach to Buffy about saving souls in "Sactuary" or locking all those people in the wine cellar in "Reunions") or high-handedly makes self-serving decisions on his own (such as choosing to return to a vampire in "IWRY", making the blanket decision to join Wolfram & Hart for all of the gang in "Home" or talking Lorne-Lorne-into killing Lindsey in "NFA").

Don't even get me started on what he did to MY Lorne. Such a gentle peaceloving demon, with a wonderful voice! *sigh*

Angel often showed a darker side to his personality in the show. He was never black and white. I have to admit that is what I loved about AtS, it had grey's, but it also meant then none of them were traditional heros.

Spike, on the other hand, lacks a high purpose. He very often does the right things for all the wrong reasons, even when he was evil (before the chip). We've seen him act out of love-for Drusilla, for Buffy, for Dawn, for Joyce and for Fred. We've seen him save the lives of the Scoobies, who he's always professed not to like at all. We've seen him take bullets for Lindsey, someone he had no reason to trust after the scam he pulled on Spike and we've watched as he developed a rapport with Illyria. We've seen that he believes in speaking the truth time and again.

I think with Spike his lack of a high moral purpose has come from always being in someone's shadow, and letting them lead. With the Fanged Four, he may have rebelled, and had his own aims, but ultimately he was the youngest of them, and followed the rest of his family.

While with Drusilla, he cared for her. He may have done things so she could get what she wanted, but it was her whims that he catered for

I would like to see him more in control now.

And more importantly, IMO, is the fact that Spike sought out his soul of his own free will and has died saving the world. That's something that Angel has not done.

Yes, Angel was cursed, while Spike earned his soul!

To me, that makes Spike more of a hero than Angel and I suppose that's the way I'll always see them.

Oh same here, so much the same here!

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I think certain changes are inevitable. When Spike was in the the show about female empowerment, his behavior had been modeled according to feminist ideals. When te crossed over to boys' territory, he has been a bit rewritten to satisfy another audience. Thankfully, they kept the core personality intact.

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

Yes, I think that they have to have change. If the character remained the same, then the character would become redundant. I'm hoping Brian makes sympathatic changes, that make sense, and lead to growth for Spike!

[erin-starlight.livejournal.com]

I haven't been keeping up with all the Brian interviews but I'm pretty much with you. Spike might claim that he's a ladies man who wants no attachments, that he doesn't want redemption, or that he hates Angel. His actions say otherwise.

I can not see Spike using them as his harem. Sure he might have an one night stand but I can't see Brain playing it up. In his past protrayals he's had a couple of women Spike hit on turn him down. (One said she was gay another didn't even notice he was coming on to her.) To have all these women like being used by Spike seems like a complete turn about. I could see Joss wanting it to go that way sadly (the "funny" Harm/Spike scene was his idea.)

I don't think Spike really believes he is the hero yet, still feels he has something to prove. Same with Angel, Spike can't quite think of them as friends. He might not know where they stand now since his anger about getting sent to hell, Angel missing then showing up to accuse Spike/Illyria of murders and now being thrown back together.

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

I hope not, I just cannot see the harem working, and would just get a lot of fans accusing them of OOC.....not that Joss seems to mind that at all as far as I can see. The "funny" Harm/Spike scene was such a waste of time. I just hope Brian has been given more control, and hasn't been influenced at all. Asylum and Shadow Puppets where great, and that is the Spike I want to see continue!

Angel's actions so far towards Spike and Illyria have been deporable. He is not someone I think Spike should consider a friend. IMHO, but I would like to see some character development with Spike towards becoming more of a Hero.

[erin-starlight.livejournal.com]

I do remember Brain saying that Joss did an outline of things we wanted done in Spike ATF. The Harm/Spike bit really took away from what was almost a perfect episode for me.

Sadly I do think Spike cares more about Angel than Angel does for Spike. At least from what ATF has hinted at in #5. I think Spike did become even more of a hero. He and Connor are pretty much the main champions in L.A before Angel recovered. They both have their own teams, work together and protect the innocent. Spike just has more of a problem admitting that being a hero is part of him.

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

I think that Spike may get round to admiting that being a hero is something he would do. I would like Connor to be the one to bring him round. Yes Spike seems to care more about Angel than Angel does about Spike, but Angel does rely on Spike more than he likes to admit. I think in a way that is what he hates, that Spike is the one who is there for him!