Comic Vs TV what do you prefer?

[lady_windermere]

sueworld2003 said "Trouble is as beautifully done as they are, they mainly served to push home to me how much I miss seeing those characters in a live action format." I was wondering how many others felt the same. Two polls under the cut.


[Poll #1129330]

Comments

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

Yes, in my flist it does seem that Angel: After the Fall is the most popular. Maybe the characters do seem more in keeping with the tv show.

Good point about being used to comics. I think a few people in the Buffy verse have come to comics "new" and are not used to them. Even so, the characters had been going on for years, if you are going to continue canon, you should know what has gone before. Which I think Brian Lynch has done.....moreso than Joss at this stage.

Not sure I will continue with season 8, will give it a bit more time to decide.

[erin-starlight.livejournal.com]

Good point about being used to comics. I think a few people in the Buffy verse have come to comics "new" and are not used to them.

I have noticed this as well.

if you are going to continue canon, you should know what has gone before. Which I think Brian Lynch has done.....moreso than Joss at this stage.

Which ticks me off when the Angel nay sayers go on about how fanfic-like they say ATF is because Joss isn't involved more. At least Lynch has kept to canon without huge changes.

Not sure I will continue with season 8, will give it a bit more time to decide.

The things that would have kept my interest sound boring or ooc as hell (Dawn and Faith) and the only thing that might be cool to me is Dracula. But I might get ticked off if they dismiss Spike vs. Dracula. Or if they have him mooning over Buffy (though it looks like it might be Xander.) Still as much as I love the Buffyverse Dracula I'm going to have to pass.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I was sort of ticked by the AICN review saying that the ATF comics read as inferior and fanfic like as compared to the BtVS comic. Wha-huh? At least I can connect the dots with the AtS:AtF comics for how the characters got from the show to the comic whereas with the BtVS I feel that I have far too many blanks to fanwank to connect the dots, reinforcing a very fanfic feeling to me.

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

Yep, totally agree with that one.

[erin-starlight.livejournal.com]

I know, where do they get THAT from? Only thing I can think of is maybe Betta George since he was from another comic series. But Buffy? So much fanwank, like the Immortal thing, the shipper fan service with the Nurse Buffy, Warren not being dead and some other things I might have forgotten. Even if the space of time that's passed I get why the Angel characters act that way. BTVS? Not so much.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

At least I can connect the dots with the AtS:AtF comics for how the characters got from the show to the comic whereas with the BtVS I feel that I have far too many blanks to fanwank to connect the dots, reinforcing a very fanfic feeling to me.

Oddly, I feel the exact opposite. I'm enjoying AtF and I respect BL's skills as a writer (and very much appreciate his active involvement in fandom) - but his care to stick so closely to existing canon and to explain everything step-by-step seems much more like fanfic to me.

Joss in season 8, however, has all the confidence of being the original author to take a big leap into the unknown, shake up his existing characters, and not worry about being "out of character". He's telling a vast story, starting in medias res and fedding in extra clues and bits of background over the months, and I'm really enjoying it - even more now with issue #10 when some of the pieces are finally falling into place about what's really going on. But it's a courageous decision, and you only have to look at the poll results here to see that not everyone agrees with the artistic choices he's made...

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

"when some of the pieces are finally falling into place about what's really going on"

They are? Colour me surprised then. :0

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

I agree. That's why I'm enjoying Season 8 much more than After the Fall. Plus, always liked the Scoobies more than the Fang Gang.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Which I think also partially explains preferences. We all have affection for certain characters and thus are naturally hungry and eager to know more about the characters we have the most loyalty to.

[liliaeth]

I guess that for me the problem is that since Chosen I've utterly despised most of the scoobies, where as NFA made me love all of the fang gang.

So that instantly sets me up with a dislike against Buffy s8, because none of the chars are likeable anymore, while Joss seems to be utterly ignoring s6-s7 which I actually prefer to s1-3

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

While I agree that it's Joss-like to make huge leaps with no explanation, I've always considered that to be one of his weaknesses as a writer. He's fantastic with dialog and, when engaged, sometimes brilliant with emotional characterization. But solid plotting (both for story arcs or his characters' strategizing) often acts as his Achilles heel.

It does annoy me that he simply forgot what happened with Warren and Amy. It's sloppy. I don't like having to be told that even though it doesn't fit with what happened on the show, that's okay, because the author, who was in charge of what happened orgiginally, now tells me that he forgot. Oops.

That doesn't play well with me. It makes the writer's universe crack, and each subsequent inconsistency or huge blank space for fanwank makes that universe feel less and less 'real' and thus convincing within itself. It takes internal consistency to pull off a fictional universe, without internal consistency it grows increasingly difficult to suspend disbelief.

More than that, there's little effort in making the emotional journeys be an organic evolution from where the series left off (such as the Buffy/Faith thing) and little effort to explain where the primary characters heads and hearts are (see: Buffy and Giles situation here). In addition to the discontinuity of things like Warren, I just don't feel like Joss is playing fair with the audience or with the world he previously created by picking up at some nebulous point and then retconning stuff so that it feels like much of this is happening is a tangential offshoot rather than a continuation.

YMMV, of course, but I've yet to feel that Joss is telling Buffy's story. It feels a great deal like he's telling a story that necessarily involves Buffy because he needs her to have people buy the comics about the epic quasi-military potentials or whatever...with some Willow and Faith thrown in (don't get me wrong, I enjoy Faith so I'm not knocking her... or Willow.)

All in all, it 'feels' to me (admittedly a wholly subjective thing) that the AtS comics are coming from an appreciation of the AtS universe and that the BtVS comics feel like Joss restaging the BtVS universe while at the same time showing little actual interest or affection for the universe he previously created. It's that pick up and start somewhere entirely different with a different focus that seems very, very fanfic to me, as it's what fanfic writers do. Nothing is wrong with that, but such things naturally become filed in my head as something other than 'canon.'

I've been thrown off my stride by too often. He's done a bit too much changing of canon history and failing to connect to BtVS 7 (which, ironically was also my gripe with BtVS 7, it ignored the logical aftermath of BtVS 6... which is why I do consider this a Joss weakness in general). I need more internal continuity and I need a little more organic character evolution that doesn't require the audience to fanwank vast chunks of space, time, and pivotal characterization.

Paraphrasing rahirah from another post. I can fanwank virtually anything. In canon, I don't think I should constantly be required to.

I need more continuity if it's to feel canonical rather than fanficcy to me. Nothing is wrong with fanfic. I enjoy fanfic, but fanfic is allowed to have amorphous ties to the original text. Moreso than any direct outgrowth of canon should.

YMMV, of course.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't argue that the plots (as opposed to the character arcs) were never the show's strong point. Explain that thing about Buffy's blood being the same as Dawn's to me again? ;-) But part of the problem here seems to be that to me, the characterisation in S8 is not off. They all seem perfectly organic developments of their earlier selves to me. Yes, there's definitely untold story... but we're finding that out bit by bit. Buffy's suppressed guilt over her method of funding the Slayer Army explains a whole lot of things about the previous episodes, for example. One of the earlier alternative covers was the three Scoobies filling in a giant jigsaw puzzle, and that's exactly what this feels like. I just recently watched both seasons of 'Carnivale' on DVD, and I got the same vibe from that. Things are gradually building up around us to a climax, rather than shunting along directly to the same destination as with AtF. (Insert male-v-female sexuality metaphor here as desired. :-) )

the AtS comics are coming from an appreciation of the AtS universe and that the BtVS comics feel like Joss restaging the BtVS universe

Which is a perfect restatement of why - to me - AtF feels like very well-written fanfic of the old show, and S8 feels like a sequel to the old show written by the original author.

I mean, try comparing 'Hobbit' fanfic about Bilbo and Thorin, to 'The Lord of the Rings'. No fanfic writer would dare write the latter and still call it fanfic...


(And the whole Warren thing? Honestly, and with all due respect, I see it as pretty trivial. The First could appear as Buffy when she was standing right there in front of It, so the fact that It could also appear as Warren when he too, we now learn, was only dead temporarily instead of permanently isn't really a big deal at all.

If Joss were still in charge of Mutant Enemy earning millions of dollars per episode instead of whatever pittance comic publishers are able to pay, he could employ a research assistant to check that sort of continuity detail. But he isn't, and he can't, and he forgot a minor bit of trivia about The First's abilities. It's not the end of the world.)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

One thing I've learned from the Jossverse fandom is that people came away with a myriad of impressions about the characters and the characters emotional essences and journeys. Such impressions overlap and don't overlap in varying degrees so that it's possible for different people to walk away with substantially different views of the characters.

While I can certainly come to a place where I can see the comics as possible outcomes for the characters, it's not the most convincing outcome for me. But that's a totally subjective thing and I'm by no means saying that what I think is the only way to view the characters or the canon. It's just that so far, the BtVS comics haven't gotten me emotionally invested or particularly feeling any of the characters (some less than others) and no matter what Joss says, it doesn't click as canon for me. But that's a personal thing.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Which is a perfect restatement of why - to me - AtF feels like very well-written fanfic of the old show, and S8 feels like a sequel to the old show written by the original author.

Interesting observation. Because I tend to agree about the sequel feel of season 8, but I don't see it in a positive way.

BtVS-8 does look and feel like a sequel of a Hollywood franchise. With a desperate urge to make it "bigger and better" i.e. more slam-bang and kick-ass than the original. The sequel syndrome is the main reason of incredible stupidity of current big studio productions.

In National Treasure-2 good guy Nicolas Cage kidnaps American president. In BtVS-8 good guy Buffy robs banks. Seems like a pattern.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

You could equally well say it feels like the difference between The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, Portrait of a Young Man and Ulysses or Firefly and Serenity in the transition from a story about one girl and one town to one with truly global scope.

I have no idea what National Treasure is, was the first movie any good either? But two points of comparison do not make a pattern or I'm as dead as my ex-cat (being also a mammal).

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

"(And the whole Warren thing? Honestly, and with all due respect, I see it as pretty trivial. The First could appear as Buffy when she was standing right there in front of It, so the fact that It could also appear as Warren when he too, we now learn, was only dead temporarily instead of permanently isn't really a big deal at all."

Trivial? Oh come of it. With great respect the whole Warren thing in season 6 was a big deal, for heavens sake, and having him forget what he actually did there says a lot about Joss attitude towards this comic as far as I'm concerned.

A weirdly lackadaisical attitude for any writer to have let alone Joss, and to have and wank it for him is even worse.

You shouldn't have to be filling in the blanks for him like that. Something that I notice a lot of the series readers are constantly being asked to do, and which quite frankly is getting on my nerves somewhat.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

With great respect the whole Warren thing in season 6 was a big deal, for heavens sake

I'd say that even if you find Jeanty not 'adult' enough for your tastes the artwork pretty clearly indicates that Joss remembers Warren being flayed alive. If he forgot anything it wasn't from S6 but the S7 point about the First appearing as any dead person it wants. Or rather any person who had once been dead in the case of Buffy or near death on the way to becoming undead in the case of Spike. It's a little complicated so maybe what he meant when he said he "forgot" was that he forgot to make it absolutely clear to letter-writers not paying attention to the text (which nowhere has Warren stating that he was never dead) that Warren had died in one of the many senses of the word at least momentarily before becoming whatever non-human (because that was explicit) thing he is now.

You shouldn't have to be filling in the blanks for him like that. Something that I notice a lot of the series readers are constantly being asked to do, and which quite frankly is getting on my nerves somewhat.

It is hard having to think about a story.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

I mean, try comparing 'Hobbit' fanfic about Bilbo and Thorin, to 'The Lord of the Rings'. No fanfic writer would dare write the latter and still call it fanfic...

Most excellent analogy, I wish I'd thought of it. Also with respect to AtF is Spike Bilbo or Thorin?

[twilightofmagic.livejournal.com]

All in all, it 'feels' to me (admittedly a wholly subjective thing) that the AtS comics are coming from an appreciation of the AtS universe and that the BtVS comics feel like Joss restaging the BtVS universe while at the same time showing little actual interest or affection for the universe he previously created.

Very astute comment. It really does feel that Joss left Buffy behind in a final kind of way. His affection died and others took its place. He clearly loved AtS and its story, fell head over heels in love with Firefly/Serenity and only came back to Buffy in the comics because it was still popular withe fans. I've only been able to read the scans online, but it definitely doesn't feel like the Buffy world I knew on the show. I'd much rather he left it at Chosen and let fanficcers play in the possibilities of the aftermath.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

He's telling a vast story, starting in medias res and fedding in extra clues and bits of background over the months, and I'm really enjoying it - even more now with issue #10 when some of the pieces are finally falling into place about what's really going on.

Just curious. What do you think is really going on? Because I have no clue. Honest. After almost a year I can't figure out what's really happening story-wise.

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

"Just curious. What do you think is really going on? Because I have no clue. Honest. After almost a year I can't figure out what's really happening story-wise."

Oh fuck knows, cos at this juncture I certainly don't.....*g*

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

This probably needs a longer reply than I've got time for now, but in brief, I think it's all about consequences. 'Chosen' ended with an apparent victory, an happy ending: it's about liberation and empowerment. But in the real world, Buffy's actions would have some far-reaching consequences, both good and bad, and Season 8 is about exploring these. (That's why I think it's better seen as a sequel rather than a continuation: 'Chosen' was an ending, and S8 is a new story about what would happen next.)

Anyway, I think that Buffy's motives are still good ones: she sees herself as protecting the world from evil. But necessity and perhaps naivety have tempted her into making dubious moral choices. She's trying to convince herself that the robbery was just a harmless caper done for good reasons, but she's feeling guilty about it, leading to over-sensitivity. Until we get more evidence I don't know if her estrangement from Giles is because of this, but it's a logical deduction. Nor do I know if they're still working together despite their personal difficulties, or if they've formally seperated and now merely enemies of the same enemy - I expect we'll find out eventually.

Meanwhile, General Voll's accusation that the Slayers were setting themselves up as an unaccountable organisation above the law is proving disturbingly accurate. I said back at the time that Twilight - the organisation not the entity - was an unusual Buffyverse villain in that on the face of things, their objective was a perfectly reasonable and defensible one. (Jasmine would be the other good example). Like Angel in Season 5, Buffy in season 8 may well find that her usual black-and-white moral distinctions no longer work in the new, more adult situation she finds herself in.

As for the rest of it: we now know Twilight's plan, barring future revelations: the ending magic bit. I'm suspecting that both Buffy and Willow will have to do some serious reflection on how they feel about that, and whether or not they'd be justified in opposing Twilight at all. (And whether they'll end up on the same side, or opposite sides, even.) Who Twilight is and why he's doing this are still unknown for the moment; I suspect we'll get some more clues but no definitive answer in 8.11.

The rebellion by Simone's team of Slayers - already foreshadowed in two different issues - looks like it might be a major side-plot. One stemming directly from Buffy's own actions, of course, and putting new emphasis on General Voll's words about the menace to humanity Slayers pose. I'm expecting to see Simone pop up several times again before she's finally dealt with.

The whole business of the mole within Buffy's forces, and who will betray her - who may or may not be the same person - are still mysterious for now. So is the Dawn storyline; from Joss's hints, I'm pretty sure it won't be a case of "oh, now we know the tale of her and Kenny she'll be back to normal size again soon." I'm pretty sure that there'll be a bigger payoff than that; and also that Giant Dawn will get to do a bit more stomping before she's debiggened.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Thank you for a very detailed reply, I really appreciate it.

It's just... that bank robbery changed the basics of Buffyverse so profoundly I don't know what to expect next. I won't be surprised to find out that Giles or Xander (or both) work for general Voll for the greater good; that Willow was time-travelling to Fray times during her "missing months"; that Faith has arrived from an alternate dimension where Buffy is still kept in a psychiatric ward. I feel that I lost my frame of reference.

I mean - when I was reading the first nine issues I thought I knew the characters. Now I discovered that I know nothing about this new Buffy. Maybe I know nothing about the others. And I don't know what to expect from them. Any character's storyarc may go in any direction. An in the end we'll find out that it's all just a dream or a glitch in a time rift.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's fair to call AtF fan-fiction-y. It's a different project, is all. Brian's only got 12 issues in which to tell his story, for one thing. For another, we're only on #3. And the greatness that is season 8 has only become apparent further in. While I doubt we'll end up with the layers and complexities that season 8 is now promising in AtF, it's not fair to complain that we haven't seen it yet. In any case, we haven't had step-by-step explanations in AtF. There are lots of blanks right now, just as there were in #3 for season 8.

That said, I'm totally with you on season 8 at this point. I had been very skeptical of Joss's choice to start in media res, but am increasingly coming to appreciate his choice. It is too bad that it seems to be costing him a good chunk of his audience (and worse the chunk of his audience who in general have more insight into the series). Part of it is that it was a big shift in his narrative style. And if you don't see that shift, it all gets misread. If you expect an essentially linear progression, then all the ways in which the characters and situations seemed 'off' just look like weak story-telling. It's only when you see that the structure is non-linear, and that the characters ARE supposed to see off, and that the story is about gradually learning about what has already happened that it makes sense. Quite beautiful, really.

In that vein, let me remark that I think Dawn's story is going to turn out to be centrally tied into the main plot. It's been the big poster child for how 'off' Joss is. And I now think he's using the metaphor of 'giant' and 'big' really quite literally. She's the big elephant in the room. And a lot will depend on her story. (There's a fearless forecast for you.)

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

I should probably say that to me, calling something "fan-fiction" isn't pejorative, so I wasn't criticising AtF when I said that's what it felt like. ('Felt like', not 'is', of course, because it's pro-fic, and canon pro-fic at that.) But perhaps it was the wrong expression to use, given the associations many people make of it...

Completely agree with the rest of your post, and have a sneaky feeling you're right about the significance of Dawn.